The Atheist Communist Caliphate Made Flesh, Spread the Clusterfuck Around Thread

[MikeC]

Finally found that article on the Russian invasion of Georgia.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php

Its a long read, but it gives historical background of the situation.

In the months before the invasion....

"The next provocation: On April 16 Putin signs a presidential decree recognizing the documents of Abkhazians and South Ossetians in Russia and vice versa. This effectively integrates these two territories into Russia's legal space. The Georgians were furious. So you have all these provocations mounting and mounting and mounting. Meanwhile, as of July, various air corps start moving from the rest of Russia to get closer to the Caucasus. These are obscure details, but they are available.

"Starting in mid July the Russians launched the biggest military exercise in the North Caucasus that they've held since the Chechnya war. That exercise never stopped. It just turned into a war. They had all their elite troops there, all their armor there, all their stuff there. Everyone still foolishly thought the action was going to be in Abkhazia or in Chechnya, which is still not as peaceful as they'd like it to be.

"The Georgians had their crack troops in Iraq. So what was left at their central base in Gori? Not very much. Just Soviet era equipment and not their best troops. They didn't place troops on the border with Abkhazia because they didn't want to provoke the Abkhaz. They were expecting an attempt on Kodori, but the gorge is in such a way that unless they're going to use massive air support – which the Abkhaz don't have – it's impossible to take that place. Otherwise they would have done it already.

"So fast forward to early August. You have a town, Tskhinvali, which is Ossetian, and a bunch of Georgian villages surrounding it in a crescent shape. There are peacekeepers there. Both Russian peacekeepers and Georgian peacekeepers under a 1994 accord. The Ossetians were dug in in the town, and the Georgians were in the forests and the fields between the town and the villages. The Ossetians start provoking and provoking and provoking by shelling Georgian positions and Georgian villages around there. And it's a classic tit for tat thing. You shell, I shell back. The Georgians offered repeated ceasefires, which the Ossetians broke.

....

"So back to the 3rd of August. Kokoity (Ossetia's President) announces women and children should leave. As it later turned out, he made all the civilians leave who were not fighting or did not have fighting capabilities. On the same day, irregulars – Ingush, Chechen, Ossetians, and Cossacks – start coming in and spreading out into the countryside but don't do anything. They just sit and wait. On the 6th of August the shelling intensifies from Ossetian positions. And for the first time since the war finished in 1992, they are using 120mm guns."

"Can I stop you for a second?" I said. I was still under the impression that the war began on August 7 and that Georgian President Saakashvili started it when he sent troops into South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. What was all this about the Ossetian violence on August 6 and before?

He raised his hand as if to say stop.

"That was the formal start of the war," he said. "Because of the peace agreement they had, nobody was allowed to have guns bigger than 80mm. Okay, so that's the formal start of the war. It wasn't the attack on Tskhinvali. Now stop me."

"Okay," I said. "All the reports I've read say Saakashvili started the war."

"I'm not yet on the 7th," he said. "I'm on the 6th."

"Okay," I said. He had given this explanation to reporters before, and he knew exactly what I was thinking.

"Saakashvili is accused of starting this war on the 7th," he said.

"Right," I said. "But that sounds like complete bs to me if what you say is true."

Thomas Goltz nodded.

[MikeC]

And on the attempt to stop the Russian advance through the Roki Tunnel...

"On the evening of the 7th, the Ossetians launch an all-out barrage focused on Georgian villages, not on Georgian positions. Remember, these Georgian villages inside South Ossetia – the Georgians have mostly evacuated those villages, and three of them are completely pulverized. That evening, the 7th, the president gets information that a large Russian column is on the move. Later that evening, somebody sees those vehicles emerging from the Roki tunnel [into Georgia from Russia]. Then a little bit later, somebody else sees them. That's three confirmations. It was time to act.

"What they had in the area was peacekeeping stuff, not stuff for fighting a war. They had to stop that column, and they had to stop it for two reasons. It's a pretty steep valley. If they could stop the Russians there, they would be stuck in the tunnel and they couldn't send the rest of their army through. So they did two things. The first thing they did, and it happened at roughly the same time, they tried to get through [South Ossetian capital] Tskhinvali, and that's when everybody says Saakashvili started the war. It wasn't about taking Ossetia back, it was about fighting their way through that town to get onto that road to slow the Russian advance. The second thing they did, they dropped a team of paratroopers to destroy a bridge. They got wiped out, but first they managed to destroy the bridge and about 15 Russian vehicles.

"The Georgians will tell you that they estimate that these two actions together slowed the Russian advance by 24 to 48 hours. That is what the world considered to be Misha's game. And you know why the world considers it that? Because here in South Ossetia was the head of the peacekeeping troops. He hasn't been in Iraq, he's a peace keeper. What have they been told for the last four years? They lived in a failed state, then there was the Rose Revolution – it wasn't perfect but, damn, now there's electricity, there's jobs, roads have been fixed – and what the Georgians have had drummed into them is that Georgia is now a constitutional state, a state of law and order. And everybody here knows that Ossetia is a gangster's smuggler's paradise. The whole world knows it, but here they know it particularly well. The peacekeepers had a military objective, and the first rule of warfare when you're talking to the media is not to reveal to your enemy what you're going to do. So they weren't going to blather into a microphone and say well, actually, I'm trying to go through Tskhinvali in order to stop the Russians. So what did he say instead? I'm here to restore constitutional order in South Ossetia. And that's it. With that, Georgia lost the propaganda war and the world believes Saakashvili started it. And the rest of the story...you know."

[ChuckD]

Nice article, Mike. Seriously, thanks for linking something that's pretty reasoned and level-headed. I'll defer to the author's expertise on who fired the first shots. However, considering the area has been embroiled in conflict for 14 years, I think attributing blame for the war in 2008 to one side is pretty ridiculous at this point. I did have the opportunity to research the Abkhazian conflict for a good part of 2007 with a pretty smart lady who's knowledgeable enough about Russian/Eurasian politics to have written several textbooks on the matter. Some background to consider:

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia maintained some level of autonomy prior to the breakup of the USSR in late 1991. Each enjoyed some nice perks due to this status. For instance, Abkhazia was a popular spot for Soviet higher ups and had a thriving tourism sector because of it. That's a nice way of saying that the area is populated with enough good looking tail to satisfy even the most depraved travels of Tonker.

Both regions were then effectively annexed against their will into the newly-created Georgia. This is pretty ironic given that Georgia had declared its own independence from the USSR shortly before, only to discover that the USSR wasn't having any of it. Georgia's newly-elected nationalistic president Gamsakhurdia promised to buttfuck the shit out of both Ossetia and Abkhazia since both regions were full of ethnic minorities who were making out nicely while the rest of Georgia (populated by Georgians) was pretty much dirt poor. By losing their sovereignty, both lost some of the prestige which they held under Soviet rule. More importantly, they lost control over their purse strings to Tbilisi. As a consequence, they both fought separatist wars against Georgia in the early 90s. Both got gang raped. Then they fought again in the late 90s. And again in the early 00s. And again in the late 00s. Most people agree that everyone fought dirty (by everyone, I mean Georgia, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Russia).

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia have since held public referendum in which their populations (99% in South Ossetia, 97% in Abkhazia) asserted that they wished to seek independence from Georgia. Tbilisi basically said "Um, no, fuck you, pay me" to both.

I won't sit here and defend the Russian government. I think we can all pretty well agree that it's extremely corrupt. Any efforts by Moscow to paint itself as an altruistic liberator of South Ossetia while simultaneously beating the living shit out of Chechnya (who helped in the gangfucking of Abkhazia in the early Oughts, wtf?) can and should ring hollow. But to simply defend the actions of the Georgian government because its corrupt, albeit pro-Western, President Sakashvili is "our corrupt guy" is hypocritical. From my perspective, I support the independence of both South Ossetia/Abkhazia; not because they were in the right in 2008 (I don't really give a shit either way), and not because I masturbate while reading Pravda in a Che Guevara shirt. Rather, I support it because I think it's pretty fucked up to take away the independence of a people as was the case in the early 90s.

[MikeC]

I noticed on the poll for Abkhazian that ethnic Georgians who were expelled from there were not allowed to vote. This is because of what happened in the article i linked to....

"Now the story starts really in 1992 when this fuse was lit in Georgia," Worms said. "Now, there's two territories. There's Abkhazia which has clearly defined administrative borders, and there's South Ossetia that doesn't. Before the troubles started, Abkhazia was an extremely ethnically mixed area: about 60 percent Georgian, 20 percent Abkhaz, and 20 percent assorted others – Greeks, Estonians, Armenians, Jews, what have you. In Ossetia it was a completely integrated and completely mixed Ossetian-Georgian population. The Ossetians and the Georgians have never been apart in the sense that they were living in their own little villages and doing their own little things. There has been inter-marriage and a sense of common understanding going back to distant history. The Georgians will tell you about King Tamar – that's a woman, but they called her a king – and she was married to an Ossetian. So the fuse was lit and two wars start, one in Abkhazia and one in South Ossetia."

...

"So in 1991," Worms said, "things here explode. And basically it gets pretty nasty. Thomas can tell you what happened. Read his book, it's worth it. And by the time the dust settles, there are between 20,000 and 30,000 dead. Many atrocities committed by both sides, but mostly – at least that's what the Georgians say – by the Abkhaz. And the end result is everybody gets kicked out. Everybody who is not Abkhaz or Russian gets kicked out. That's about 400,000 people. 250,000 of those still live as Internally Displaced Persons within Georgia. As for the rest: the Greeks have gone back to Greece, the Armenians to Armenia, some Abkhaz to Turkey, etc.

While yes they voted, only the small minority who are left voted. The 400,000 people who were ejected from that region didn't have a say and I would imagine if they were allowed to vote it would not be 97%.

That also goes beyond the fact that i don't trust any votes when you get a 97% or 99% approval for something. You look at the South Ossetian independence referendum and 60 people voted no and 51,000+ voted yes. Really only 60 people voted no, with Georgian villages inside of South Ossentia and 94% of the population reporting voting.  I don't know how many thousands of Georgians live in South Ossentia but 1) They weren't allowed to vote or 2) They voted but they voted Saddam Hussein style, or the the election results were simply rigged from the very beginning to get the desired result.

I agree its a messed up region with corrupt people on both sides and a whole hell of a lot of propaganda to sort through. My whole view of it could be wrong, but some things don't add up on the Russian side for it to be Georgian aggression.

My time is running short for the day and i did a quick breeze through. But I think people need to return to the places they were expelled from and then hold a vote to show the will of the people. The problem is that is never going to happen as Georgian civilians expelled in those regions far outnumbers sympathetic Russian loyalists.

Like i said a while back the entire conflict and propaganda being thrown around is fascinating. But its very hard to figure out the truth.

[PenFoe]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

[MAD]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

What the hell thread did it knock off?

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

What the hell thread did it knock off?

Possible candidates...

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7019.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7022.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6729.msg187912#msg187912

[ChuckD]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

Where the hell have you been for the past 178 pages?

[Quality Start Machine]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

What the hell thread did it knock off?

Possible candidates...

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7019.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7022.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6729.msg187912#msg187912

The carpet muncher thread didn't even make top 3?

[SKO]

Nice article, Mike. Seriously, thanks for linking something that's pretty reasoned and level-headed. I'll defer to the author's expertise on who fired the first shots. However, considering the area has been embroiled in conflict for 14 years, I think attributing blame for the war in 2008 to one side is pretty ridiculous at this point. I did have the opportunity to research the Abkhazian conflict for a good part of 2007 with a pretty smart lady who's knowledgeable enough about Russian/Eurasian politics to have written several textbooks on the matter. Some background to consider:

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia maintained some level of autonomy prior to the breakup of the USSR in late 1991. Each enjoyed some nice perks due to this status. For instance, Abkhazia was a popular spot for Soviet higher ups and had a thriving tourism sector because of it. That's a nice way of saying that the area is populated with enough good looking tail to satisfy even the most depraved travels of Tonker.

Both regions were then effectively annexed against their will into the newly-created Georgia. This is pretty ironic given that Georgia had declared its own independence from the USSR shortly before, only to discover that the USSR wasn't having any of it. Georgia's newly-elected nationalistic president Gamsakhurdia promised to buttfuck the shit out of both Ossetia and Abkhazia since both regions were full of ethnic minorities who were making out nicely while the rest of Georgia (populated by Georgians) was pretty much dirt poor. By losing their sovereignty, both lost some of the prestige which they held under Soviet rule. More importantly, they lost control over their purse strings to Tbilisi. As a consequence, they both fought separatist wars against Georgia in the early 90s. Both got gang raped. Then they fought again in the late 90s. And again in the early 00s. And again in the late 00s. Most people agree that everyone fought dirty (by everyone, I mean Georgia, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Russia).

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia have since held public referendum in which their populations (99% in South Ossetia, 97% in Abkhazia) asserted that they wished to seek independence from Georgia. Tbilisi basically said "Um, no, fuck you, pay me" to both.

I won't sit here and defend the Russian government. I think we can all pretty well agree that it's extremely corrupt. Any efforts by Moscow to paint itself as an altruistic liberator of South Ossetia while simultaneously beating the living shit out of Chechnya (who helped in the gangfucking of Abkhazia in the early Oughts, wtf?) can and should ring hollow. But to simply defend the actions of the Georgian government because its corrupt, albeit pro-Western, President Sakashvili is "our corrupt guy" is hypocritical. From my perspective, I support the independence of both South Ossetia/Abkhazia; not because they were in the right in 2008 (I don't really give a shit either way), and not because I masturbate while reading Pravda in a Che Guevara shirt. Rather, I support it because I think it's pretty fucked up to take away the independence of a people as was the case in the early 90s.

You still do that, though. Right? You're just saying that's Not the reason you're making This particular argument?

[Philberto]

Well, this thread finally ascended to its rightful position as the worst thread in the history of the internet.

Congratulations, smeglickers.

What the hell thread did it knock off?

Possible candidates...

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7019.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=7022.0
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6729.msg187912#msg187912

No Mom's Basement threads? Color me surprised.

[Ivy6]

You're all wrong.

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=148.0

[R-V]

OMG TEH TIRRORESTS ARE COMING ITS AN ATTACK ON TIH CONSTITOSHONZ AND MA LIBIRTEES!!

News that the federal government seems interested in transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to the Thomson Correctional Center was greeted warmly in this small, rural farm town along the Iowa border.

After holding out hope that the sprawling $145 million prison might improve the economic conditions in this remote area of the state, residents say any prisoners would be a welcomed sight.

"It would help the businesses here, and God knows we could use that," said Kay Lawton, 59, a Thomson resident. "It doesn't matter to me who they bring here."

[CT III]

OMG TEH TIRRORESTS ARE COMING ITS AN ATTACK ON TIH CONSTITOSHONZ AND MA LIBIRTEES!!

News that the federal government seems interested in transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to the Thomson Correctional Center was greeted warmly in this small, rural farm town along the Iowa border.

After holding out hope that the sprawling $145 million prison might improve the economic conditions in this remote area of the state, residents say any prisoners would be a welcomed sight.

"It would help the businesses here, and God knows we could use that," said Kay Lawton, 59, a Thomson resident. "It doesn't matter to me who they bring here."

Help the businesses there?  I don't think that Kay Lawton knows exactly how prison works.

[ChuckD]

Let's right this fucking ship with a trans-national, tri-partisan display of some seriously epic mother. fucking. boner time.

http://www.hollywoodgrind.com/hiroko-mima-and-anya-ayoung-chee-intimate-video-tape-leaked/

Hiroko Mima, who was crowned Miss Universe Japan 2008, and Anya Ayoung-Chee, who was crowned Miss Universe 2008 of Trinidad and Tobago 2008, are in the middle a scandal after an intimate video tape leaked allegedly showing Hiroko and Anya together having s*x with Anya's boyfriend Wyatt, and with each other.

Although neither girl was crowned Miss Universe, the Donald Trump owned organization is left with a bit of a public relations dilema. While the pageant always tries to promote the contestants as beautiful, talented, and smart, the reality is the girls are also h*rny, and subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us humans.

With that said, there are a bunch of videos floating around, but we've got 4 videos, along with pictures, of the two girls and Wyatt having a really good time. Carrie Prejean may be getting an offer for a one-time payment to allow her solo tapes to be sold and distributed, but Hiroko and Anya should get full-time contracts. These two girls are pros.

Click here to download the videos, or view them here.

The lucky sack of shit in question.