The Atheist Communist Caliphate Made Flesh, Spread the Clusterfuck Around Thread

[MikeC]

I take from your silence that the DHS memo really was just a red herring, MikeC?

The report I am really not interested in. The findings from the research in alot of these cases is that individuals were tracked as being members of these extremist groups and then joining the military and then returning to these groups. Alot of them were being tracked for the circles they already were in not because they were veterans first. The report doesn't distinguish that fact and simply lables all returning veterans as an area to watch.

It points out Tim McVeigh because he was a veteran as an example. The military didn't teach him how to build a bomb and blow up a building and the military didn't make him the man he was. He was that person before he joined and he was that person after he left.

Also an area that you quote is that white supremist groups and such are getting trainining in the Armed Forces. Yeah and their point is in the memo? Again its just targeting military personal when it is already well known these groups have been infiltrating and gaining training from law enforcement, to CIA, and FBI for over the last 20 years. Should the report also mention that police officers and FBI personal are potential risks? No it only specifically states military.

Its kinda like saying all black people are more prone to violence and the government needs to watch the black population. Yeah i think government already did that for a long period of time. It was just a poorly written memo trying to paint all veterans as a risk, which is just pure horse shit.

I was just responding to the fact it wasn't written by the Bush Administration at all. It came out of the Homeland Security office during the Obama administration with current events being expressed in it. This memo wasn't just laying around from the Bush people and Nap decides to put it out. It was written and put out by her office. I was just amazed no one bothered to challenge that fact and people just accepted that Bush could tell the future.

[Chuck to Chuck]

By no means do I think that 100 million is significant, but in terms of the spending, it helps to look at the picture in reality.

The federal budget is not 3.6 trillion dollars.  Approximately 2 trillion of that spending comes in the form of Medicare and Social Security, mandatory payments that the goverment must make by law.  The other 1.6 trillion is discretionary spending, meaning that which is at the control of Congress and the President.

So, that makes the request 100 million from each Agency and Department head (which there are alot of, I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 40+) out of a total 1.6 trillion dollars. 

It's not really that much more significant, but it is much better than out of 3.6 trillion.

Just to be accurate.

Where are you including interest on the debt?

And for those complaining that Obama isn't cutting enough (me!) were you complaining about the LBJ-on-Roids spending the last eight years (I was)?

At least the guy is cutting SOMETHING.

[Gil Gunderson]

By no means do I think that 100 million is significant, but in terms of the spending, it helps to look at the picture in reality.

The federal budget is not 3.6 trillion dollars.  Approximately 2 trillion of that spending comes in the form of Medicare and Social Security, mandatory payments that the goverment must make by law.  The other 1.6 trillion is discretionary spending, meaning that which is at the control of Congress and the President.

So, that makes the request 100 million from each Agency and Department head (which there are alot of, I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 40+) out of a total 1.6 trillion dollars. 

It's not really that much more significant, but it is much better than out of 3.6 trillion.

Just to be accurate.

Where are you including interest on the debt?

And for those complaining that Obama isn't cutting enough (me!) were you complaining about the LBJ-on-Roids spending the last eight years (I was)?

At least the guy is cutting SOMETHING.

I didn't want to write a dissertation on the budget.  But, that interest would have to be tacked into the mandatory spending section.

[ChuckD]

I take from your silence that the DHS memo really was just a red herring, MikeC?

The report I am really not interested in. The findings from the research in alot of these cases is that individuals were tracked as being members of these extremist groups and then joining the military and then returning to these groups. Alot of them were being tracked for the circles they already were in not because they were veterans first. The report doesn't distinguish that fact and simply lables all returning veterans as an area to watch.

That is absolutely not what the report is stating, Mike. It's not suggesting that extremist groups are infiltrating the military. It's suggesting that "a small percentage" of "returning" veterans will be targeted by extremist groups. This isn't a blanket generalization of all military personnel. The report isn't saying that TEC, JD, or any of the other veterans that frequent this board are radical terrorists. It's not throwing their service under a bus. It's simply stating that there's the potential that extremist groups will recruit "a small percentage" of returning veterans.

(U//FOUO)  DHS/I&A assesses that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and
radicalize returning veterans in order to exploit their skills and knowledge derived from
military training and combat.  These skills and knowledge have the potential to boost the
capabilities of extremists—including lone wolves or small terrorist cells—to carry out
violence.  The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist
groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from
the psychological effects of war is being replicated today.

It points out Tim McVeigh because he was a veteran as an example. The military didn't teach him how to build a bomb and blow up a building and the military didn't make him the man he was. He was that person before he joined and he was that person after he left.

He's certainly not indicative of all military personnel. However, his military experience certainly had an impact on his eventual decision to blow up the building:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1321244.stm

He admits to killing two Iraqis, but was upset at what he saw as the needless death of countless Iraqis at the end of the Gulf War.

The army, he says, taught him how to switch off his emotions.

McVeigh was tipped for promotion and on his return, he tried to join the elite Green Berets. He took a battery of IQ, personality and aptitude tests, but, out of condition from lack of exercise in the Gulf, found the physical rigours of the training camp too tough and dropped out after two days.

Disillusioned, he went back to the regular army but soon gave up and returned to live with his father.

McVeigh took a series of dead-end jobs and followed gun shows across the country.

So, we have a returning vet who experienced some awful shit while he was in the military, probably had some emotional issues as a result, had trouble reintegrating in to civilian life, became disillusioned with the government, and basically had no good reason (a wife, career, friends) to not lash out.

Also an area that you quote is that white supremist groups and such are getting trainining in the Armed Forces. Yeah and their point is in the memo? Again its just targeting military personal when it is already well known these groups have been infiltrating and gaining training from law enforcement, to CIA, and FBI for over the last 20 years. Should the report also mention that police officers and FBI personal are potential risks? No it only specifically states military.

Again, read the passage. It's talking about returning veterans. It's not suggesting that the extremist groups are infiltrating military/law enforcement organizations. That's a completely different can of worms. It's a valid point--maybe it should be addressed in the memo--but it's different from the one in question.

Its kinda like saying all black people are more prone to violence and the government needs to watch the black population. Yeah i think government already did that for a long period of time.

No, it's not "kinda like saying" that at all.

It was just a poorly written memo trying to paint all veterans as a risk, which is just pure horse shit.

If that's what you think, then you didn't read it.

[Tank]

The report... simply lables all returning veterans as an area to watch.

No it doesn't.

Not even once.

I refer you to:

http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg175880#msg175880
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg175881#msg175881
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg175904#msg175904
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg176129#msg176129
http://www.desipio.com/messageboard/index.php?topic=6402.msg176166#msg176166

[Tank]

Adding...

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-dhs-watching-returning-veterans-only.html

It's important to understand how FBI investigations into these kinds of activities take place: The FBI is constrained by DOJ guidelines that do not allow them to investigate organizations merely because of incendiary rhetoric or politically worrisome beliefs. They only open investigations into the activities of members of such groups when there is evidence of actual criminal activity.

And it's at that time that the presence of an extremist with a military background becomes not merely relevant, but potentially important. This is especially so considering one of the realities of the extremist right -- namely, that the vast majority of its members are incapable of anything remotely resembling a terrorist act; what they actually specialize in is the Verbose Bellyache. Yet simultaneously they have developed over recent years a decidedly militaristic culture that prizes actual military background.

It's worth noting that this report was not even laying out an investigative program, but merely highlighting areas of certain potential concern (among many) that domestic law enforcement should be aware of.

One of those being: the potential threats posed by violent right wing extremists with military training and combat experience.

It really is that simple.

[Chuck to Chuck]

I didn't want to write a dissertation on the budget.  But, that interest would have to be tacked into the mandatory spending section.

Right, but is interest included in the $2 trillion you note or is it in addition?  Makes the percentages even better.

[Gil Gunderson]

I didn't want to write a dissertation on the budget.  But, that interest would have to be tacked into the mandatory spending section.

Right, but is interest included in the $2 trillion you note or is it in addition?  Makes the percentages even better.

It would be in the 2 trillion since those payments need to be made under US law.

[MikeC]

Like i said i don't care personally about the memo and what it said i just can see how people look at it and get offended. I put this memo right up there with the lefts outrage over the Bin Laden determined to strike memo or whatever that was. See its proof BUSH KNEW 9/11 was coming. Yeah ok whatever.

Again i commented to say this wasn't from the Bush Administration, it was from Obama's.

[Tank]

Like i said i don't care personally about the memo and what it said i just can see how people look at it and get offended.

You also said the memo was...

...trying to paint all veterans as a risk, which is just pure horse shit.

Which (while not really true at all in the sense of stating a true fact) does seem to suggest that you were among those who looked at it (assuming for a moment that you actually in fact looked at it) and got offended.

[MikeC]

Like i said i don't care personally about the memo and what it said i just can see how people look at it and get offended.

You also said the memo was...

...trying to paint all veterans as a risk, which is just pure horse shit.

Which (while not really true at all in the sense of stating a true fact) does seem to suggest that you were among those who looked at it (assuming for a moment that you actually in fact looked at it) and got offended.

You have to understand veterans as a whole are super sensitive to being labeled by the left. The left loves to explain how nothing more than the uneducated, and minorities join the military, because they have no other choice. Then we got people on the left like Kerry, Obama, and Murtha who think all our soldiers do is air raid villages, bust into homes in the middle of the night terrorizing women and children. Now a report comes out from the DHS under Obama suggesting some could be violent and could join extremist groups.

The Democrats spend most of their time bashing the troops, and their mission, and the majority see it as another example of the left trying to demonize veterans/soldiers. The Vietnam era vets are especially pissed about it because these were the labels being put on them, hence why American Legion demanded and got an apology.

I think the outrage was overdone, but i can see where alot of it is coming from and i think some politicians are doing it just for political purposes and not because they care.

I am more interested in a potential socialized GM, how TARP is turning into a criminal enterprise, how bailouts are not helping countries like Great Britian, Spain, and Germany who are much farther along in the process than we are, Nancy Pelosi's sheer stupidity in saying she knew nothing about water boarding and such when she sat on the committee that approved these practices, John Murtha's scandal involving PMA group, The Car Czar caught in a pay for play scandal, and finally, not that important on the grand scale of things, but watching the buck being passed around with the NYC flyover by Air Force One. FAA now has released a memo saying this could scare the shit out of people and Obama and his boys still thought it was a grand idea. Now the latest news is that the Photo Op has been renamed "training mission." Ohhhhh yeah Obama must think everyone is an idiot. I can't wait till he tells us it was a blimp.

[RV]

You have to understand veterans as a whole are super sensitive to being labeled by the left. The left loves to explain how nothing more than the uneducated, and minorities join the military, because they have no other choice. Then we got people on the left like Kerry, Obama, and Murtha who think all our soldiers do is air raid villages, bust into homes in the middle of the night terrorizing women and children.

Congratulations on your appointment as Spokesman for All Veterans Everywhere. And it's about time someone accused 'the left' of hating the troops, I haven't heard that old chestnut for a couple years now. Bravo.

[Quality Start Machine]

You have to understand veterans as a whole are super sensitive to being labeled by the left. The left loves to explain how nothing more than the uneducated, and minorities join the military, because they have no other choice. Then we got people on the left like Kerry, Obama, and Murtha who think all our soldiers do is air raid villages, bust into homes in the middle of the night terrorizing women and children.

Congratulations on your appointment as Spokesman for All Veterans Everywhere. And it's about time someone accused 'the left' of hating the troops, I haven't heard that old chestnut for a couple years now. Bravo.

And what the Hell do Kerry and Murtha know about being veterans?

[morpheus]

You have to understand veterans as a whole are super sensitive to being labeled by the left. The left loves to explain how nothing more than the uneducated, and minorities join the military, because they have no other choice. Then we got people on the left like Kerry, Obama, and Murtha who think all our soldiers do is air raid villages, bust into homes in the middle of the night terrorizing women and children.

Congratulations on your appointment as Spokesman for All Veterans Everywhere. And it's about time someone accused 'the left' of hating the troops, I haven't heard that old chestnut for a couple years now. Bravo.

And what the Hell do Kerry and Murtha know about being veterans?

In MikeC's defense, he was only noting the tendencies of Kerry and Murtha in more recent times to view US soliders in a more negative light, regardless of whether they fought in wars years ago.

[Gil Gunderson]

Like i said i don't care personally about the memo and what it said i just can see how people look at it and get offended.

You also said the memo was...

...trying to paint all veterans as a risk, which is just pure horse shit.

Which (while not really true at all in the sense of stating a true fact) does seem to suggest that you were among those who looked at it (assuming for a moment that you actually in fact looked at it) and got offended.

You have to understand veterans as a whole are super sensitive to being labeled by the left. The left loves to explain how nothing more than the uneducated, and minorities join the military, because they have no other choice. Then we got people on the left like Kerry, Obama, and Murtha who think all our soldiers do is air raid villages, bust into homes in the middle of the night terrorizing women and children. Now a report comes out from the DHS under Obama suggesting some could be violent and could join extremist groups.

The Democrats spend most of their time bashing the troops, and their mission, and the majority see it as another example of the left trying to demonize veterans/soldiers. The Vietnam era vets are especially pissed about it because these were the labels being put on them, hence why American Legion demanded and got an apology.

I think the outrage was overdone, but i can see where alot of it is coming from and i think some politicians are doing it just for political purposes and not because they care.

I am more interested in a potential socialized GM, how TARP is turning into a criminal enterprise, how bailouts are not helping countries like Great Britian, Spain, and Germany who are much farther along in the process than we are, Nancy Pelosi's sheer stupidity in saying she knew nothing about water boarding and such when she sat on the committee that approved these practices, John Murtha's scandal involving PMA group, The Car Czar caught in a pay for play scandal, and finally, not that important on the grand scale of things, but watching the buck being passed around with the NYC flyover by Air Force One. FAA now has released a memo saying this could scare the shit out of people and Obama and his boys still thought it was a grand idea. Now the latest news is that the Photo Op has been renamed "training mission." Ohhhhh yeah Obama must think everyone is an idiot. I can't wait till he tells us it was a blimp.

So, waterboarding is torture then?  Good that we wrapped that up.