So how does it end for our former beloved phenom shortstop?
Len Kasper mentioned, this morning on the SCORE, the words "platoon" and "shortstop" in the same sentence and I would just like to go on the record that I find that to be a horrible idea. Addison's the man--no equivocation. Shortstop's too important to platoon if you can avoid it. At this point, I couldn't give two fucks about how Starlin feels about playing second base but if he's starting any games down the stretch, I'd prefer he play there vs. lefties to see what he can do. If he can't perform better than J. Herrera than I'm really confused about this kid. Either way, at the current rate second base looks like it'll be Baez and La Stella in September anyway, with Coghlan settling in to what will hopefully be a productive pinch-hitting role down the stretch and beyond, so then what?
I guess besides sitting on the bench wearing Herrera's hand-me-down Gum Bucket, Castro can come up 15 or 20 times to pinch-hit. Maybe he'll win a game or two, and they decide to keep him on the roster and he does it again a few times in the playoffs. Of course, if this were to play out he'd have probably worked himself back into where he could definitely be trusted to spell Addison (as opposed to platooning with him) the 4 or so more times that Russell will probably need a day off down the stretch.
Short of that, I'm not sure what to expect for here on out. Does he clear waivers? Do the Cubs still trade him if he does? Definitely interesting, when you consider his arc, how he started...speaking for myself, no matter how it ends, I'm pretty sure I won't have hard feelings towards him, despite the frustration. Dude was the only thing that mattered in the Dark Ages and I always feel an appreciation for guys who were there in the beginning of an ascent but not at the ascension (*cough* Sam Vincent, Charles Oakley *cough* Robert Lang Craig Adams *cough*).
Discuss, jerks.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
So how does it end for our former beloved phenom shortstop?
Len Kasper mentioned, this morning on the SCORE the words "platoon" and "shortstop" in the same sentence and I would just like to go on the record that I find that to be a horrible idea. Addison's the man--no equivocation. Shortstop's too important to platoon if you can avoid it. At this point, I couldn't give two fucks about how Starlin feels about playing second base but if he's starting any games down the stretch, I'd prefer he play there vs. lefties to see what he can do. If he can't perform better than J. Herrera than I'm really confused about this kid. Either way, at the current rate second base looks like it'll be Baez and La Stella in September anyway, with Coghlan settling in to what will hopefully be a productive pinch-hitting role down the stretch and beyond, so then what?
I guess besides sitting on the bench wearing Herrera's hand-me-down Gum Bucket, Castro can come up 15 or 20 times to pinch-hit, maybe wins a game or two, and they decide to keep him on the roster and he does it again a few times in the playoffs (if if this were to play out he'd have probably worked himself back into where he could definitely be trusted to spell Addison (as opposed to platooning with him) the 4 or so more times that Russell will probably need a day off down the stretch).
Short of that, I'm not sure what to expect for here on out. Does he clear waivers? Do the Cubs still trade him if he does? Definitely interesting, when you consider his arc, how he started...speaking for myself, no matter how it ends, I'm pretty sure I won't have hard feelings towards him, despite the frustration. Dude was the only thing that mattered in the Dark Ages and I always feel an appreciation for guys who were there in the beginning of an ascent but not at the ascension (*cough* Sam Vincent, Charles Oakley *cough* Robert Lang Craig Adams *cough*).
Discuss, jerks.
Periods, Mike.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 11, 2015, 09:21:22 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
So how does it end for our former beloved phenom shortstop?
Len Kasper mentioned, this morning on the SCORE the words "platoon" and "shortstop" in the same sentence and I would just like to go on the record that I find that to be a horrible idea. Addison's the man--no equivocation. Shortstop's too important to platoon if you can avoid it. At this point, I couldn't give two fucks about how Starlin feels about playing second base but if he's starting any games down the stretch, I'd prefer he play there vs. lefties to see what he can do. If he can't perform better than J. Herrera than I'm really confused about this kid. Either way, at the current rate second base looks like it'll be Baez and La Stella in September anyway, with Coghlan settling in to what will hopefully be a productive pinch-hitting role down the stretch and beyond, so then what?
I guess besides sitting on the bench wearing Herrera's hand-me-down Gum Bucket, Castro can come up 15 or 20 times to pinch-hit, maybe wins a game or two, and they decide to keep him on the roster and he does it again a few times in the playoffs (if if this were to play out he'd have probably worked himself back into where he could definitely be trusted to spell Addison (as opposed to platooning with him) the 4 or so more times that Russell will probably need a day off down the stretch).
Short of that, I'm not sure what to expect for here on out. Does he clear waivers? Do the Cubs still trade him if he does? Definitely interesting, when you consider his arc, how he started...speaking for myself, no matter how it ends, I'm pretty sure I won't have hard feelings towards him, despite the frustration. Dude was the only thing that mattered in the Dark Ages and I always feel an appreciation for guys who were there in the beginning of an ascent but not at the ascension (*cough* Sam Vincent, Charles Oakley *cough* Robert Lang Craig Adams *cough*)
Discuss, jerks.
Periods, Mike.
Epochs.
I fixed it so maybe now we can talk about Castro instead of PANK. Go.
I can't see the logic in platooning Addison and Castro at all. Sure, Addison's numbers vs lefties aren't great (.472) OPS but he's a rookie and 72 plate appearances is hardly enough of a sample to assume he needs to be platooned. Plus Starlin has a .583 OPS vs lefties this year. That's not really worth pulling Addison for.
I hope Castro can deliver some big pinch hits, I guess, but I mostly hope Javy comes up and rakes and we can all just move on. I'm pretty sure going somewhere else is best for Starlin anyway.
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 09:32:24 AM
I can't see the logic in platooning Addison and Castro at all. Sure, Addison's numbers vs lefties aren't great (.472) OPS but he's a rookie and 72 plate appearances is hardly enough of a sample to assume he needs to be platooned. Plus Starlin has a .583 OPS vs lefties this year. That's not really worth pulling Addison for.
I hope Castro can deliver some big pinch hits, I guess, but I mostly hope Javy comes up and rakes and we can all just move on. I'm pretty sure going somewhere else is best for Starlin anyway.
I thought a Castro/Utley waiver deal might be a good idea, because for some reason I thought his contract was up this year.
But he has 3 more years at 15/per. Woof.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:27:23 AM
I fixed it so maybe now we can talk about Castro instead of PANK. Go.
Nice work.
I feel terrible about what's happening to my favorite player. It's really the only downer I can see during this season so far. One thing I've always heard about Joe Maddon is that he finds a role for players and by and large they accept it. Castro may be feeling like his three good seasons outweigh his current shitburger of a 2015 and that he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
My true hope is that while he's in purgatory, Starlin finds his way back to the swing and approach that made him such a useful Major League player. And when and if his number is called down the stretch, be it for sub duties or replacing an injured starter longterm, he gets back to respectability.
But even that will only make him more tradeable come winter. So I'm stuck looking back at my favorite player's tenure with my favorite team with very little to show for it. Even Cutler got us to the precipice before jack fucking his knee in the most Jay Cutler moment that could ever possibly be.
Starlin gave us a pretty cool commercial replaying a walk-off single past a drawn-in infield in a game I attended. I've paused that commercial and pointed to my bright blue jersey in the seats a couple times now to my lady's consternation.
So there's that.
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 11, 2015, 09:37:05 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 09:32:24 AM
I can't see the logic in platooning Addison and Castro at all. Sure, Addison's numbers vs lefties aren't great (.472) OPS but he's a rookie and 72 plate appearances is hardly enough of a sample to assume he needs to be platooned. Plus Starlin has a .583 OPS vs lefties this year. That's not really worth pulling Addison for.
I hope Castro can deliver some big pinch hits, I guess, but I mostly hope Javy comes up and rakes and we can all just move on. I'm pretty sure going somewhere else is best for Starlin anyway.
I thought a Castro/Utley waiver deal might be a good idea, because for some reason I thought his contract was up this year.
But he has 3 more years at 15/per. Woof.
The Phillies ate a lot of cash to get better prospects from the Rangers. They don't appear to be lacking financial resources. They might eat a good chunk of that to get an actual prospect from the Cubs, maybe. But I'm not really sure I want Utley. In fact I'm pretty sure I don't.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Does he clear waivers?
Yes.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Do the Cubs still trade him if he does?
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
Here's a mind game: Trade Castro for Shields straight up. Here's the salaries.
2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
Castro $6.86 $7.86 $9.86 $10.86 $11.86 $1.00
Shields $10.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.00 $2.00
You could get Shields for $26.7mm more than Castro costs. SD gets salary relief of that same $26.7mm and they get a 25 year old guy who used to be pretty good.
Or, do you save your power for Price in the offseason knowing you'd probably have to eat more of Castro's deal?
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Does he clear waivers?
Yes.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Do the Cubs still trade him if he does?
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
Here's a mind game: Trade Castro for Shields straight up. Here's the salaries.
2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
Castro $6.86 $7.86 $9.86 $10.86 $11.86 $1.00
Shields $10.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.00 $2.00
You could get Shields for $26.7mm more than Castro costs. SD gets salary relief of that same $26.7mm and they get a 25 year old guy who used to be pretty good.
Or, do you save your power for Price in the offseason knowing you'd probably have to eat more of Castro's deal?
I would much rather eat Castro's salary and have him on the bench or hope he rebuilds his value in whatever opportunities he gets next year rather than take on 35-37 year old James Shields.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Does he clear waivers?
Yes.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Do the Cubs still trade him if he does?
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
Here's a mind game: Trade Castro for Shields straight up. Here's the salaries.
2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
Castro $6.86 $7.86 $9.86 $10.86 $11.86 $1.00
Shields $10.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.00 $2.00
You could get Shields for $26.7mm more than Castro costs. SD gets salary relief of that same $26.7mm and they get a 25 year old guy who used to be pretty good.
Or, do you save your power for Price in the offseason knowing you'd probably have to eat more of Castro's deal?
I think I'd rather just flat-out DFA Castro than take on Shields' entire contract.
ETA: SKO beat me to it, apparently.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:39:27 AM
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
I'll admit it...I chuckled.
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Does he clear waivers?
Yes.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Do the Cubs still trade him if he does?
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
Here's a mind game: Trade Castro for Shields straight up. Here's the salaries.
2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
Castro $6.86 $7.86 $9.86 $10.86 $11.86 $1.00
Shields $10.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.00 $2.00
You could get Shields for $26.7mm more than Castro costs. SD gets salary relief of that same $26.7mm and they get a 25 year old guy who used to be pretty good.
Or, do you save your power for Price in the offseason knowing you'd probably have to eat more of Castro's deal?
I think I'd rather just flat-out DFA Castro than take on Shields' entire contract.
ETA: SKO beat me to it, apparently.
I'm in agreement. But essentially $9mm/year for three years of Shields isn't a bad thing. Frankly, I'd do both (Shields and Price) with Ricketts' money.
Seriously though, Castro is making less than 7 million next year. That should in no way inhibit the Cubs from making whatever FA moves they want to make, so if the only options are DFA'ing him, or taking on an even worse contract just to get rid of him, why do it? He's worth a 7 million dollar gamble that he'll bounce back somewhat next year.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:48:35 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Does he clear waivers?
Yes.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Do the Cubs still trade him if he does?
They'd love to. It's increasingly likely they are going to eat the bulk of his contract in any deal.
Here's a mind game: Trade Castro for Shields straight up. Here's the salaries.
2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020
Castro $6.86 $7.86 $9.86 $10.86 $11.86 $1.00
Shields $10.00 $21.00 $21.00 $21.00 $2.00
You could get Shields for $26.7mm more than Castro costs. SD gets salary relief of that same $26.7mm and they get a 25 year old guy who used to be pretty good.
Or, do you save your power for Price in the offseason knowing you'd probably have to eat more of Castro's deal?
I think I'd rather just flat-out DFA Castro than take on Shields' entire contract.
ETA: SKO beat me to it, apparently.
I'm in agreement. But essentially $9mm/year for three years of Shields isn't a bad thing. Frankly, I'd do both (Shields and Price) with Ricketts' money.
If we think the Cubs are going to get David Price or whomever, then Shields would be taking Hendricks spot in the rotation. I am not the world's biggest believer in Kyle Hendricks but I am more than willing to be that he will either be A) Better than Shields over the next three years or B)Be similarly valuable while being a hell of a lot cheaper.
Taking on James Shields makes no sense under any circumstance.
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 09:49:52 AM
Seriously though, Castro is making less than 7 million next year. That should in no way inhibit the Cubs from making whatever FA moves they want to make, so if the only options are DFA'ing him, or taking on an even worse contract just to get rid of him, why do it? He's worth a 7 million dollar gamble that he'll bounce back somewhat next year.
Not really seeing how he can bounce back.. Hard to see him getting playing time. And his replacement is probably Baez at under $1mm/yr through 2018. He costs nothing to replace. The issue is can you get any value for him. Something like a Shields swap is probably the only alternative outside of DFA/trade eating 90% of the salary.
Then again, maybe he has s little value that the DFA is the way to go.
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 09:53:10 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 09:49:52 AM
Seriously though, Castro is making less than 7 million next year. That should in no way inhibit the Cubs from making whatever FA moves they want to make, so if the only options are DFA'ing him, or taking on an even worse contract just to get rid of him, why do it? He's worth a 7 million dollar gamble that he'll bounce back somewhat next year.
Not really seeing how he can bounce back.. Hard to see him getting playing time. And his replacement is probably Baez at under $1mm/yr through 2018. He costs nothing to replace. The issue is can you get any value for him. Something like a Shields swap is probably the only alternative outside of DFA/trade eating 90% of the salary.
Then again, maybe he has s little value that the DFA is the way to go.
Then you DFA him. Taking on a more expensive player you're going to regret having on the roster in a year or two, if that, is beyond dumb. And again, Kyle Hendricks (2.2 fWAR) has been literally twice as valuable a pitcher than James Shields (1.1) this year, and he costs basically nothing. Taking on Shields just to get rid of Castro, and having the acquisition of Shields either bump Hendricks from the rotation or preclude you from going after Price is invincibly stupid.
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
He's a 25 year old shortstop one year removed from being an all-star, with a team-friendly contract.
Wherever the convo travels from here, the "he doesn't have any trade value" part of it needs to be removed.
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
They may have to package him with something attractive like Billy McKinney or even Gleyber, but I suspect it will be to get something they actually need in return. Not a flyball pitcher with declining velocity who hasn't even been able to hide in Petco Park this year.
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 11, 2015, 10:06:25 AM
He's a 25 year old shortstop one year removed from being an all-star, with a team-friendlywhose multi year stats place him at the bottom of the list for starting MLB short stops and he has a long term contract.
Wherever the convo travels from here, the "he doesn't have any trade value" part of it needs to be removed.
He doesn't have any trade value.
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
I agree. I imagine there are at least a few organizations who think they can fix him and are willing to take a chance on his age/past success. It'd just be a matter of how much they're willing to give up.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
His recent rough couple of starts since he pulled his hammy notwithstanding, I would still rather have Hammel than Shields next year. Hammel has been worth 3.7 fWAR since the start of 2014, Shields has been worth 4.3 (with Hammel having the edge this year at 2.0 vs 1.1). Plus they can extend Hammel (who obviously likes pitching in Chicago) next year or let him go at no cost to them after next year. They don't have an out with Shields.
This is a bad idea. However you phrase it you are replacing a starting pitcher with a different, more expensive starting pitcher who is almost a guaranteed bet to be worse than the guy he is replacing going forward. Let it go.
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
His recent rough couple of starts since he pulled his hammy notwithstanding, I would still rather have Hammel than Shields next year. Hammel has been worth 3.7 fWAR since the start of 2014, Shields has been worth 4.3 (with Hammel having the edge this year at 2.0 vs 1.1). Plus they can extend Hammel (who obviously likes pitching in Chicago) next year or let him go at no cost to them after next year. They don't have an out with Shields.
This is a bad idea. However you phrase it you are replacing a starting pitcher with a different, more expensive starting pitcher who is almost a guaranteed bet to be worse than the guy he is replacing going forward. Let it go.
I only pick on Shields because: 1) Cubs did try to sign him this winter; 2) Reports are he's cleared waivers; 3) He has a contract that would save a team money in trading for Castro.
I'm sure there are other players who fit points 2 and 3. That's the type of player the Cubs can get back right now for Castro.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:15:52 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
His recent rough couple of starts since he pulled his hammy notwithstanding, I would still rather have Hammel than Shields next year. Hammel has been worth 3.7 fWAR since the start of 2014, Shields has been worth 4.3 (with Hammel having the edge this year at 2.0 vs 1.1). Plus they can extend Hammel (who obviously likes pitching in Chicago) next year or let him go at no cost to them after next year. They don't have an out with Shields.
This is a bad idea. However you phrase it you are replacing a starting pitcher with a different, more expensive starting pitcher who is almost a guaranteed bet to be worse than the guy he is replacing going forward. Let it go.
I only pick on Shields because: 1) Cubs did try to sign him this winter; 2) Reports are he's cleared waivers; 3) He has a contract that would save a team money in trading for Castro.
I'm sure there are other players who fit points 2 and 3. That's the type of player the Cubs can get back right now for Castro.
The Cubs tried to sign him this winter and then balked at the price, his velocity has gone down, and the Padres backloaded his contract. They won't bite on it now.
And it's fine if your point is "this is the kind of player Castro can bring back in a trade." That's exactly why our response is "don't trade him, then." Paying Castro to be an $8 million dollar Jonathan Herrera is a better option to me than paying Shields $12 million (or whatever his salary-Castro's is) to be Edwin Jackson, which I'm pretty sure is where he's headed with that Flyball/HR rate and diminishing skills. Especially because there is a chance, however remote, that a 26 year old will suddenly rediscover his talent. Shields, however, is pretty clearly going to not get better after age 34.
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
I agree. I imagine there are at least a few organizations who think they can fix him and are willing to take a chance on his age/past success. It'd just be a matter of how much they're willing to give up.
I'd settle for some really long-range prospects that they won't have to worry about 40-man rostering for a while in the hopes that 1 of them might hit in 4-5 years.
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 10:27:12 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 10:10:22 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
I agree. I imagine there are at least a few organizations who think they can fix him and are willing to take a chance on his age/past success. It'd just be a matter of how much they're willing to give up.
I'd settle for some really long-range prospects that they won't have to worry about 40-man rostering for a while in the hopes that 1 of them might hit in 4-5 years.
This is fine. Frankly I refuse to believe that in a world where Omar Infante and his .542 OPS have started 105 games for the AL-leading Royals there's not one team willing to take a flyer on Castro. Heck, the Royals are a great example. Their limited financial resources led them to hand the starting DH job to Kendrys Morales and his .614 OPS from last year. He rebounded to have a pretty solid year for them. There are lots of teams out there that have to take gambles on guys like Castro. The Cubs might have to eat some money to make it work or pair him with a prospect of their own but he'll have some value in trade talks.
Didi Gregorious is starting for the Yankees with a .659 OPS. Elvis Andrus hasn't sniffed a .700 OPS in three years. Those guys are better than Castro defensively, but there's going to be someone willing to try and gamble that he'll find his hitting stroke again. There's just not enough guys at that position who can hit a damn thing. Castro has hit before, someone will see if he can do it again.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:09:08 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 11, 2015, 10:06:25 AM
He's a 25 year old shortstop one year removed from being an all-star, with a team-friendlywhose multi year stats place him at the bottom of the list for starting MLB short stops and he has a long term contract.
Wherever the convo travels from here, the "he doesn't have any trade value" part of it needs to be removed.
He doesn't have any trade value.
No, Chuck...I mean, you realize than in 4 of his 6 seasons his OPS+ is over 100, right?
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Hammel isn't a FA after this season
Quote from: Yeti on August 11, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Hammel isn't a FA after this season
Hammel goes to the pen in that scenario. Or gets traded.
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 11, 2015, 10:50:29 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:09:08 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 11, 2015, 10:06:25 AM
He's a 25 year old shortstop one year removed from being an all-star, with a team-friendlywhose multi year stats place him at the bottom of the list for starting MLB short stops and he has a long term contract.
Wherever the convo travels from here, the "he doesn't have any trade value" part of it needs to be removed.
He doesn't have any trade value.
No, Chuck...I mean, you realize than in 4 of his 6 seasons his OPS+ is over 100, right?
No, Fork...I mean, you realize than over the last 3 seasons he ranks 24th in WAR for shortstops, right?
No, Fork...I mean, you realize than over the last 4 seasons he ranks 19th in WAR for shortstops, right?
No, Fork...I mean, you realize than over the last 5 seasons he ranks 17th in WAR for shortstops, right?
I mean, you realize that's called a trend line, right?
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 02:10:44 PM
Quote from: Yeti on August 11, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Hammel isn't a FA after this season
Hammel goes to the pen in that scenario. Or gets traded.
And again, why would you replace a younger, better, cheaper pitcher with one year left on his deal with James Shields and that contract?
If that's the cost for offloading Starlin, you are better off keeping Starlin.
Guys, guys. He goes to the Mets for Jacob de Grom and that's that, end of story. Are we done here?
Quote from: Sterling Archer on August 11, 2015, 03:16:02 PM
Guys, guys. He goes to the Mets for Jacob de Grom and that's that, end of story. Are we done here?
Close, he goes to the Jets to be their new quarterback.
That crazy right-winger from Florida had some interesting things (http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/08/11/the-echoing-silence-of-starlin-castros-bat/) to say about Starlin today.
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 02:10:44 PM
Quote from: Yeti on August 11, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definitely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Hammel isn't a FA after this season
Hammel goes to the pen in that scenario. Or gets traded.
And again, why would you replace a younger, better, cheaper pitcher with one year left on his deal with James Shields and that contract?
If that's the cost for offloading Starlin, you are better off keeping Starlin.
Because the return on Starlin sitting on the bench is zero while the return on increasing salary to fill a need would be positive. It eliminates the need to start Tsuyoshi Wada 7 times, Travis Wood 7 times, Clayton Richard 3 times, Dallas Beeler 3 times, Dan Haren 1 time and Donn Roach 1 time.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 03:47:54 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 02:14:57 PM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 02:10:44 PM
Quote from: Yeti on August 11, 2015, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:02:42 AM
Quote from: Eli on August 11, 2015, 09:58:17 AM
If Castro truly has no trade value, then just keep him and let him play the Jonathan Herrera role next year. Maybe that's too awkward of a possibility and they'd rather just start clean, but I don't see them just dumping him entirely without getting back some kind of value.
Fortunately, there are definit
ely a few GMs in baseball who will look at Castro's age and history and reckon he's worth something. I think the Cubs will be able to trade him, and not get completely arseraped, either.
That's definitely possible. I think they can get rid of him for only a few hemorrhoids.
Also, a Shields type acquisition wouldn't replace Hendricks, it would replace Haren. Adding Price next year would replace Hammel. Hendricks at $510k isn't going anywhere. He makes Price possible.
Hammel isn't a FA after this season
Hammel goes to the pen in that scenario. Or gets traded.
And again, why would you replace a younger, better, cheaper pitcher with one year left on his deal with James Shields and that contract?
If that's the cost for offloading Starlin, you are better off keeping Starlin.
Because the return on Starlin sitting on the bench is zero while the return on increasing salary to fill a need would be positive. It eliminates the need to start Tsuyoshi Wada 7 times, Travis Wood 7 times, Clayton Richard 3 times, Dallas Beeler 3 times, Dan Haren 1 time and Donn Roach 1 time.
Except in your scenario they have already eliminated that need by signing Price. So again how does adding a pitcher more expensive and not as good as Hammel help? Also Shields has been worth over a win less this year than last. Pretty soon he's likely to be a - WAR player owed 20 million dollars. So your brilliant strategy is to pay a pitcher version of Castro more money than Castro just so you can say you got "something" for Castro.
God I had forgotten about the Donn Roach Game.
In fact, I'm still not clearly remembering it.
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 04:08:21 PM
Except in your scenario they have already eliminated that need by signing Price. S
No, that's not what my scenario was. It was originally an either/or. But, then again, you're the SKOiest.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 11, 2015, 04:25:11 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 11, 2015, 04:08:21 PM
Except in your scenario they have already eliminated that need by signing Price. S
No, that's not what my scenario was. It was originally an either/or. But, then again, you're the SKOiest.
Then why did you talk about moving Hammel to the pen? Jesus. There is no acceptable scenario for saying James Shields should be in the Cubs plans. None.
Regardless there are many ways to add cheap, good pitching or they could go after Price (in which case having Shields contract would probably be more prohibitive than having Castro's). Adding Shields makes no sense in any scenario from a competitive or financial perspective. They'd be better off eating half of Castro's deal and trading him for a AA reliever
Quote from: PANK! on August 11, 2015, 03:26:26 PM
That crazy right-winger from Florida had some interesting things (http://wrigleyville.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/08/11/the-echoing-silence-of-starlin-castros-bat/) to say about Starlin today.
That overwrought opening graf belongs in Totally Unreadable though.
Really nice play in the top of the ninth from our boy, there.
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:17:17 PM
Really nice play in the top of the ninth from our boy, there.
There's actually nothing but upside to his situation right now. If Castro settles into a platoon with Coghlan/La Stella and starts mashing left-handed pitching, well obviously that'd be great. If not then Javy--who's probably gong to be getting at-bats somewhere anyway--will step in. Both of them could be above-average 2B defensively.
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 06:51:05 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:17:17 PM
Really nice play in the top of the ninth from our boy, there.
There's actually nothing but upside to his situation right now. If Castro settles into a platoon with Coghlan/La Stella and starts mashing left-handed pitching, well obviously that'd be great. If not then Javy--who's probably gong to be getting at-bats somewhere anyway--will step in. Both of them could be above-average 2B defensively.
Castro enters as late inning replacement in a game the Cubs lead 2-0, 1 game lead over the Giants for the 2nd WC. A ball is hit directly to him at second base, he throws it into the seats, two runs score, the Cubs go on to lose. Everyone naturally blames Starlin, of course, but some also wonder why Joe was putting a historically poor defender into a game as a defensive replacement at a position that wasn't even his. Rick Morrissey wonders aloud why Theo Epstein didn't find an upgrade at second base at the trade deadline instead of playing small. The most promising Cubs season in seven years goes up in flames.
Most importantly, someone shows Huey's father this post, and the old man, disappointed in his jinxin' ass son one last time, goes quietly into that dark night.
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 07:26:24 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 06:51:05 AM
Quote from: Tonker on August 11, 2015, 10:17:17 PM
Really nice play in the top of the ninth from our boy, there.
There's actually nothing but upside to his situation right now. If Castro settles into a platoon with Coghlan/La Stella and starts mashing left-handed pitching, well obviously that'd be great. If not then Javy--who's probably gong to be getting at-bats somewhere anyway--will step in. Both of them could be above-average 2B defensively.
Castro enters as late inning replacement in a game the Cubs lead 2-0, 1 game lead over the Giants for the 2nd WC. A ball is hit directly to him at second base, he throws it into the seats, two runs score, the Cubs go on to lose. Everyone naturally blames Starlin, of course, but some also wonder why Joe was putting a historically poor defender into a game as a defensive replacement at a position that wasn't even his. Rick Morrissey wonders aloud why Theo Epstein didn't find an upgrade at second base at the trade deadline instead of playing small. The most promising Cubs season in seven years goes up in flames.
Most importantly, someone shows Huey's father this post, and the old man, disappointed in his jinxin' ass son one last time, goes quietly into that dark night.
Way to always connect it to something awful and suck the joy out of joyful.
Is SKO wishing death upon my dad?
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 08:18:17 AM
Is SKO wishing death upon my dad?
No, just imagining his disappointment upon you saying there's only upside possible in something sports related, given your detailed explanation of his ANGER over any kind of potential jinxing.
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Shawon never had as good of a season as Castro had last year. And he was not as good of a hitter fresh out of the minors. But he was fun to watch. He'd lay off a low and away slider or curve and he'd be talking to himself out loud about "Man, good thing you laid off that one," while making "cool it" motions with his hands. He took charge on all pop ups. Probably threw in the mid 90's on plays to first. He was nuts. And fun. And that covered a lot of the disappointment. Not all, but a lot.
What hurt was the constant reminder that the Cubs took him over Dwight Gooden.
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
This is usually the response I get from people your age when I mention Dunston. People who were older tend to take a more measured approach like Chuck's. Grandpa often bemoaned the guy's wasted potential.
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 08:18:17 AM
Is SKO wishing death upon my dad?
I'm just glad my whore grandmother isn't alive to see this.
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicate it with a tennis ball in my parents' driveway a thousand more.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
So what you're saying is that he was an incredibly gifted, talented player, that represented a great deal of hope at a position where talent has been absent most of your life, and that while he ultimately didn't pan out the way he was expected to, you have a great deal of fondness for him anyways just because exciting and ultimately underachieving was better than everything else you've had to deal with? I can't say I relate (http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jaypout1.jpg).
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
His bizarre right handed uppercut swing was the shit. Yeah, I know he wasn't as good as we wanted him to be but I actually think Chuck summed him up best. I was extremely young so I loved him.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicated with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 09:45:47 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
So what you're saying is that he was an incredibly gifted, talented player, that represented a great deal of hope at a position where talent has been absent most of your life, and that while he ultimately didn't pan out the way he was expected to, you have a great deal of fondness for him anyways just because exciting and ultimately underachieving was better than everything else you've had to deal with? I can't say I relate (http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jaypout1.jpg).
If Cutler had Dunston's on-field enthusiasm and outward affection for his teammates his troubles in this market would be sliced at least in half, maybe more. Not that I'm advocating that or endorsing that rationale for loving a player who isn't that great. But Shawon had DA FIRE AND DA PASSION at a time when most of us were too young to realize how little that actually means.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicate it with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
8=======D~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:53:02 AM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicated with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
8=======D~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~
I just love how you can see Dunston bending his back to get a better look at the throw, almost like body english from a bowler.
Then 8=======D~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Al has him at 69th.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:56:46 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Al has him at 69th.
(||)
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:51:56 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 09:45:47 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
So what you're saying is that he was an incredibly gifted, talented player, that represented a great deal of hope at a position where talent has been absent most of your life, and that while he ultimately didn't pan out the way he was expected to, you have a great deal of fondness for him anyways just because exciting and ultimately underachieving was better than everything else you've had to deal with? I can't say I relate (http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jaypout1.jpg).
If Cutler had Dunston's on-field enthusiasm and outward affection for his teammates his troubles in this market would be sliced at least in half, maybe more. Not that I'm advocating that or endorsing that rationale for loving a player who isn't that great. But Shawon had DA FIRE AND DA PASSION at a time when most of us were too young to realize how little that actually means.
I usually don't require people to articulate why they love or loved a player. I mean if you're trying to argue someone is objectively
good when they aren't, sure, you need to back that shit up, but we've all loved guys who weren't exactly the best at what they do. The amount of fondness I had for Ricky Gutierrez makes no sense under any circumstances and I'll not apologize for it.
I have greatly enjoyed this Shawon Dunston history lesson.
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 10:10:58 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:51:56 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 09:45:47 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
So what you're saying is that he was an incredibly gifted, talented player, that represented a great deal of hope at a position where talent has been absent most of your life, and that while he ultimately didn't pan out the way he was expected to, you have a great deal of fondness for him anyways just because exciting and ultimately underachieving was better than everything else you've had to deal with? I can't say I relate (http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jaypout1.jpg).
If Cutler had Dunston's on-field enthusiasm and outward affection for his teammates his troubles in this market would be sliced at least in half, maybe more. Not that I'm advocating that or endorsing that rationale for loving a player who isn't that great. But Shawon had DA FIRE AND DA PASSION at a time when most of us were too young to realize how little that actually means.
I usually don't require people to articulate why they love or loved a player. I mean if you're trying to argue someone is objectively good when they aren't, sure, you need to back that shit up, but we've all loved guys who weren't exactly the best at what they do. The amount of fondness I had for Ricky Gutierrez makes no sense under any circumstances and I'll not apologize for it.
I have greatly enjoyed this Shawon Dunston history lesson.
I loved Ricky too. Basically, he was the one offensive player other than Sosa and an occasionally healthy Rondell White who could be counted on during an exciting 2001 season. I never had any illusions about what kind of player he was or might become however. He was Ricky Gutierrez. And I was just fine with that.
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, and Dawson. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0)
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
On the other hand, kids who loved Mark Grace can look at his numbers in the context of what we place importance on today and realize he an even better hitter than we thought.
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
On the other hand, kids who loved Mark Grace can look at his numbers in the context of what we place importance on today and realize he an even better hitter than we thought.
I feel so vindicated by this. I remember being the one kid in my group that liked Grace more than Sosa and hoping the guy would smack some more dongs in 1998 just to get a little more credit.
Not that I didn't think Sammy was the balls. My fandom was just formed around 1993ish and Grace hit .325 that year, played good defense, and Sammy struck out too much (which is humorous because his 135 Ks would barely register nowadays).
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
On the other hand, kids who loved Mark Grace can look at his numbers in the context of what we place importance on today and realize he an even better hitter than we thought.
Those numbers would have been amazing for a middle infielder of his day. Probably top-10 MVP. As a 1B, he was still a 3 win player, which is really good.
Quote from: Oleg on August 12, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
On the other hand, kids who loved Mark Grace can look at his numbers in the context of what we place importance on today and realize he an even better hitter than we thought.
Those numbers would have been amazing for a middle infielder of his day. Probably top-10 MVP. As a 1B, he was still a 3 win player, which is really good.
So I looked...and I'll be goddamned if Kess didn't rack up a 4 WAR in 1969. And a 2.9 in 1972.
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:37:14 AM
Quote from: Oleg on August 12, 2015, 10:33:33 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 10:17:37 AM
I'd suppose the guys who played when you're a kid wind up always holding a place in your heart. Maybe that's why I steadfastly refuse to ever look up Don Kessinger's stats.
On the other hand, kids who loved Mark Grace can look at his numbers in the context of what we place importance on today and realize he an even better hitter than we thought.
Those numbers would have been amazing for a middle infielder of his day. Probably top-10 MVP. As a 1B, he was still a 3 win player, which is really good.
So I looked...and I'll be goddamned if Kess didn't rack up a 4 WAR in 1969. And a 2.9 in 1972.
And Ken Hubbs won Rookie of the Year with -0.0 WAR. What a time to be alive. Although Ken Hubbs wasn't alive for most of it.
Quote from: ChuckD on August 12, 2015, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, and Dawson. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0)
Dawson (https://youtu.be/YmFMbNklEFA?t=5m47s)
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 10:41:12 AM
Quote from: ChuckD on August 12, 2015, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on August 12, 2015, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: PANK! on August 12, 2015, 09:16:41 AM
Quote from: Slaky on August 12, 2015, 09:06:47 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:59:37 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 08:51:31 AM
Quote from: SKO on August 12, 2015, 08:33:06 AM
Back to Starlin: it does seem like his one defensive strength his entire career has been tracking those foul pop ups better than just about any infielder I've ever seen. Kudos for him for going all out on that one.
Dunston was great at that too. He became an outfielder late in life.
I remember Shawon only a little better than I remember Sandberg (I pretty much only remember post-comeback, broken down Sandberg), but I have wondered sometimes if Starlin's career just feels like Dunston's on repeat to you old timers. All that promise and potential ultimately wasted.
Nah, Dunston was the balls.
For some, maybe. He definitely fell short of expectations though. Admittedly those expectations were high as he was the 1st pick in the draft in 1982 and then joined an other-wise veteran-rich Cubs team that had won 96 games as their starting SS as a 21 year old. Definitely called up to soon in any event, and that didn't help matters, but I don't know if that's the reason he NEVER learned to lay off the 2-strike breaking ball in the dirt. Anyway he was back to stay around late '86 and he was pretty exciting at times, 2-time All-Star I want to say, but mostly an up and down, streaky player, then injuries started hitting him and slowed his exciting talent. It's actually not an awful comparison come to think of it, but I'm not sure I see Castro as a 38 year old hitting a pinch home run in the World Series as Dunston did in the 2002. Dunston stretched his career to two decades but personally, I've never escaped the nagging feeling that he should've had a greater career.
The Shawon-O-Meter in 1989 makes him one of the top 3 or 4 Cubs of all-time, hands down.
Banks, Williams, Sandberg, Dunston.
Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, Dawson, and Dawson. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9lg6HqJeY0)
Dawson (https://youtu.be/YmFMbNklEFA?t=5m47s)
Some more vintage bro-rape by Dunston on display there.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicated with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
Anthony Rizzo made Shawon shed a tear somewhere.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicated with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
I was at this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN199507290.shtml). I was very drunk. It was awesome.
Quote from: Shooter on August 13, 2015, 08:12:29 PM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 12, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on August 12, 2015, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Bort on August 12, 2015, 09:30:52 AM
DPD: I always loved Dunston (one of the most fun Cubs to watch in my childhood), while also feeling like he should've had a better career.
Watch this entire video. (tears up)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BXXcgCeXe4
But cue it to 2:39 - 3:20 to see why we Gen X'ers will never get over our Dunston Boners, disappointing career stats be damned.
EDIT: I must have watched that game-ending double play on the pop up vs. the Mets eleventy bajillion times on Betamax cassette, and tried to replicated with a tennis ball in my parents driveway a thousand more.
This is the better video. Shows the whole play. After he makes the throw, the camera shifts to behind first base. Keep your eye on Dunston on the right edge of the screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrjRRFV4IQ&list=PL4D35FADFAD65E355
I was at this game (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHN/CHN199507290.shtml). I was very drunk. It was awesome.
Today in DYK: Heathcliff Slocumb was born seven years
before the debut of the comic strip.
I really like it when Starlin plays well.
Quote from: flannj on August 25, 2015, 10:49:36 PM
I really like it when Starlin plays well.
Yeah, so do I. I'm pulling hard for him every time he steps to the plate.
Quote from: Tonker on August 26, 2015, 01:56:02 AM
Quote from: flannj on August 25, 2015, 10:49:36 PM
I really like it when Starlin plays well.
Yeah, so do I. I'm pulling hard for him every time he steps to the plate.
So is he. Usually so much so he pulls the outside pitch and grounds to short.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 26, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
Quote from: Tonker on August 26, 2015, 01:56:02 AM
Quote from: flannj on August 25, 2015, 10:49:36 PM
I really like it when Starlin plays well.
Yeah, so do I. I'm pulling hard for him every time he steps to the plate.
So is he. Usually so much so he pulls the outside pitch and grounds to short.
No Chuck.
Quote from: flannj on August 26, 2015, 01:37:33 PM
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on August 26, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
Quote from: Tonker on August 26, 2015, 01:56:02 AM
Quote from: flannj on August 25, 2015, 10:49:36 PM
I really like it when Starlin plays well.
Yeah, so do I. I'm pulling hard for him every time he steps to the plate.
So is he. Usually so much so he pulls the outside pitch and grounds to short.
No Chuck.
No, Chuck.
I'd have to check with Ed Hartig, but I believe Starlin has more extra base hits in this series than he's had since 2011.
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Quote from: SKO on August 30, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Saved a no-hitter though, so he's ok by me
Quote from: thehawk on August 30, 2015, 10:58:59 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 30, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Saved a no-hitter though, so he's ok by me
Cost the perfect game at the time with his error, so there's that.
Quote from: thehawk on August 30, 2015, 10:58:59 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 30, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Saved a no-hitter though, so he's ok by me
My wording was vague. Wasn't hating on Starlin. I was bemoaning his bad luck. He smote that ball.
Quote from: Bonk on August 31, 2015, 03:33:07 AM
Quote from: thehawk on August 30, 2015, 10:58:59 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 30, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Saved a no-hitter though, so he's ok by me
Cost the perfect game at the time with his error, so there's that.
Eh, that ball was smoked and was a tough play and arguably should have been ruled an infield hit (even Jake said so), so his "error" is the only reason it ended up being a no-no.
Quote from: SKO on August 31, 2015, 07:39:45 AM
Quote from: Bonk on August 31, 2015, 03:33:07 AM
Quote from: thehawk on August 30, 2015, 10:58:59 PM
Quote from: SKO on August 30, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
3-3 with nobody on and shit behind him but he GIDP on the first hard hit ball he has all night with the bases loaded. My God.
Saved a no-hitter though, so he's ok by me
Cost the perfect game at the time with his error, so there's that.
Eh, that ball was smoked and was a tough play and arguably should have been ruled an infield hit (even Jake said so), so his "error" is the only reason it ended up being a no-no.
Never been gladder to see Castro make an "error".
DPD.
Yeah I think we're pretty much done here.
Fuck this fucking fucker.
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
Quote from: SKO on September 08, 2015, 12:37:25 PM
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
Agreed. If his trade value nets the team a fifth starter and he goes to a team I don't hate, that would be fantastic. Maybe I'll pick him up in the 25th round of my fantasy league or something. Maybe I'll weep silently in the privacy of my own bathroom and think about what might have been.
Quote from: InternetApex on September 08, 2015, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: SKO on September 08, 2015, 12:37:25 PM
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
Agreed. If his trade value nets the team a fifth starter and he goes to a team I don't hate, that would be fantastic. Maybe I'll pick him up in the 25th round of my fantasy league or something. Maybe I'll weep silently in the privacy of my own bathroom and think about what might have been.
For added effect, you could hold up 10 fingers and three toes in front of the mirror as you're weeping.
Quote from: Eli on September 08, 2015, 01:34:37 PM
Quote from: InternetApex on September 08, 2015, 12:52:03 PM
Quote from: SKO on September 08, 2015, 12:37:25 PM
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
Agreed. If his trade value nets the team a fifth starter and he goes to a team I don't hate, that would be fantastic. Maybe I'll pick him up in the 25th round of my fantasy league or something. Maybe I'll weep silently in the privacy of my own bathroom and think about what might have been.
For added effect, you could hold up 10 fingers and three toes in front of the mirror as you're weeping.
Five toes and eight fingers would be easier.
Quote from: SKO on September 08, 2015, 12:37:25 PM
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
The less often he plays, the better he gets.
Bench him forever and... BABE RUTH!
Any trade of Castro that yields significant salary absorption by the acquiring team is a win for the Cubs.
Quote from: Chuck to Chuck on September 08, 2015, 01:44:44 PM
Quote from: SKO on September 08, 2015, 12:37:25 PM
Since the benching, in 61 plate appearances: .344/.344/.475/.820.
Hopefully he keeps hitting this month and at least rebuilds some trade value.
The less often he plays, the better he gets.
Bench him forever and... BABE RUTH!
Any trade of Castro that yields significant salary absorption by the acquiring team is a win for the Cubs.
FYC
FYC
FYC
Get fucked, Chuck.
Twice is nice to get fucked, Chuck.
Quote from: SKO on September 18, 2015, 03:17:51 PM
Get fucked, Chuck.
Get fucked, Chuck 2: Electric Cardinal Killing Boogaloo.
We were wrong, Starlin. We were so wrong. Thanks for coming back. We missed you.
Well, Starlin's getting drilled tomorrow.
Suck on that, St. Louis.
Quote from: CubFaninHydePark on September 18, 2015, 03:46:30 PM
Twice is nice to get fucked, Chuck.
Dude, they're winning, are you lost?
Quote from: Sterling Archer on September 18, 2015, 03:47:39 PM
Quote from: CubFaninHydePark on September 18, 2015, 03:46:30 PM
Twice is nice to get fucked, Chuck.
Dude, they're winning, are you lost?
I've been trolling butthurt Pirates fans bitching about Coughlin's "dirty" slide and got bored, so I thought I'd come see what it's like to partake in joyful positive.
I have to admit, I kinda like it.
watching the st. louis broadcast. "pitchers might take exception to the way he hung around the batter's box last time up...what about this pitcher"
Next pitch goes into the bleachers.
I got a little misty hearing Pat say the crowd gave Starlin a curtain call. I'm a dope. Oh well.
Quote from: SKO on September 18, 2015, 03:53:03 PM
I got a little misty hearing Pat say the crowd gave Starlin a curtain call. I'm a dope. Oh well.
Got a bit dusty in my office watching it. Really glad to see Starlin get hot.
I'll always raise a glass to Starlin Castro.
I pull for Starlin and when I'm critical of him these days it's in the context of not trusting him out in the field late in games, which I feel is valid. I just feel like he's twice as likely to brain-fart in a critical spot late in a game than anyone else and I don't want to see that as much for the team as for Castro himself.
That said I fully expect that 1) he will have some big hits throughout the rest of the year and 2) he will still be gone when the season begins in 2016.
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
I've actually been of the opinion that his defense has improved and it's really not bad. He gets to most balls, has a good arm, and is capable of making a great play. But he's also the same guy who has had several mental and physical lapses at the wrong time. I know it seems harsh--and maybe not entirely fair-- but I think Castro's biggest issue is between the ears, and I don't know how much--if any--of that can be fixed.
I will give him credit for not sulking and having a great attitude but I also think Maddon deserves some credit on how he handled the whole situation.
At this point, though, I'm just enjoying his offensive resurgence and am happy for him that he will get some opportunity to contribute down the stretch. I didn't think that was possible a month ago.
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
Quote from: Eli on September 18, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
That's cute that you guys are like best buds now.
Quote from: InternetApex on September 18, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Eli on September 18, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
That's cute that you guys are like best buds now.
Grow up.
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 05:45:05 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on September 18, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Eli on September 18, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
That's cute that you guys are like best buds now.
Grow up.
Apex will never forgive me for the many douchey, stupid things I've done, and I don't blame him.
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 07:50:54 AM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 05:45:05 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on September 18, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Eli on September 18, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
That's cute that you guys are like best buds now.
Grow up.
Apex will never forgive me for the many douchey, stupid things I've done, and I don't blame him.
He's butthurt that Eli was not mean to you for once, as if we're in fucking high school. Christ.
In an attempt to keep this thread from devolving into pointless bickering revolving around Internet fights from several years ago, I would just simply like to add some joyful positive (http://www.csnchicago.com/cubs/redemption-starlin-castro-has-game-his-life-cubs) about Castro's performance yesterday.
Quote
Castro hit two homers and drove in six runs (tying a career high he set in his MLB debut May 7, 2010) as his redemption came full circle when the Wrigley faithful demanded a curtain call, Castro's first.
"I've been here six years and that's never happened," he said. "I enjoyed it so much".
It's pretty incredible that he's gotten to experience his first curtain call
after all that he's gone through this year. It's also pretty awesome.
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Even David Ross is universally beloved as the team Dad. Hell, even Herrera is amusing with his bucket and unsolicited curtain call
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
At the time, I thought that Madden was yanking him early with the intent of firing him up and getting better production from him in later starts. Looks like that isn't happening. Still, his next start is against the Brewers, who are redefining mediocre. If he can't go 6+ against them, then he needs to pack it in. I'd almost rather see a starter-by-committee every five days until the end of the season.
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
So in HueyWorld, you should be okay with being pulled from your start; or at least, if not, you should at least be able to gaze into the future and be sure that your next half-dozen outings are going to be good ones?
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
So in HueyWorld, you should be okay with being pulled from your start; or at least, if not, you should at least be able to gaze into the future and be sure that your next half-dozen outings are going to be good ones?
No in HueyWorld if you're going to be a red-ass about being pulled (which is fine...I would rather a guy be pissed than be all Matt Clement about it), then you ought to be prepared to back the shit out of being so demonstrative. It's a disheartening fucking situation right now.
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
So in HueyWorld, you should be okay with being pulled from your start; or at least, if not, you should at least be able to gaze into the future and be sure that your next half-dozen outings are going to be good ones?
No in HueyWorld if you're going to be a red-ass about being pulled (which is fine...I would rather a guy be pissed than all Matt Clement about it), then you ought to be prepared to back the shit out of being so demonstrative. It's a disheartening fucking situation right now.
Mate, I'm not saying that Hammel's performances haven't been disheartening, and I'm not feeling particularly enamoured with him, either. But let's not forget that for the first month or two of the season, Hammel was the de facto ace of the Cubs' rotation*.
*I can't be arsed to look this up. He was fucking good, in any event.
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 12:06:50 PM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 11:32:51 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 11:09:27 AM
Quote from: flannj on September 19, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
Quote from: Tonker on September 19, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
I had a brief look back through this thread to check which of you flip-flopping motherfuckers was now choking down Starlin's dong having previously been thoroughly unkind about him. I'm pleased to report back that, basically, we were all pulling for the guy and can all unashamedly enjoy his resurgence.
Except for Internet Chuck, of course, but even he was consistent about being a dick.
I love watching how the whole team seems to go out of their way to support each other. The way the dugout has reacted to Castro throughout all of this really shows how solid they are as teammates. I'm really happy for the kid.
Despite all the stupid bitching we do here is there really anyone on this team that is all that unlikable?
Maybe I'm just too caught up in all this but God what a fuckload of fun this ride is.
Just the starting pitchers whose last names begin with the letter "H." They are incredibly stressful to watch, especially in significant games against division rivals.
If there's anybody I'm not enamored with these days it's Hammel, not just for his poor performance which has essentially de-stabilized the rotation, but because said poor performance came on the heels of him being a bit of a red-ass for being pulled early in a couple of games. All he's done since then is prove his manager correct. If he wants to justify being an ass about his manager pulling him, then he should go out there and not suck like he has for the past 2 months.
So in HueyWorld, you should be okay with being pulled from your start; or at least, if not, you should at least be able to gaze into the future and be sure that your next half-dozen outings are going to be good ones?
No in HueyWorld if you're going to be a red-ass about being pulled (which is fine...I would rather a guy be pissed than all Matt Clement about it), then you ought to be prepared to back the shit out of being so demonstrative. It's a disheartening fucking situation right now.
Mate, I'm not saying that Hammel's performances haven't been disheartening, and I'm not feeling particularly enamoured with him, either. But let's not forget that for the first month or two of the season, Hammel was the de facto ace of the Cubs' rotation*.
*I can't be arsed to look this up. He was fucking good, in any event.
If it means avoiding a rhetorical taffy-pull that I don't have the stomach for, then fine--I retract my vague anti-Hammelism.
Who cares - Castro is just owning the Cardinals right now.
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 08:00:42 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 19, 2015, 07:50:54 AM
Quote from: PANK! on September 19, 2015, 05:45:05 AM
Quote from: InternetApex on September 18, 2015, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Eli on September 18, 2015, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 18, 2015, 05:46:40 PM
I might be in the minority, but I really hope he remains a Cub. Not only because he's capable of being an incredible hitter, but, actaully, because of how he has handled his benching. Most players with his service time, coupled with his big contract would really pout over such a tremendous change. Starlin has only ever demonstrated joy -- you can tell he's thrilled to be in the playoff hunt, in any capacity. If it's not too late to improve his defense, then there must be a place for him, particularly if Baez ends up at third base and Bryant moves to the outfield.
All of this. By all accounts, he's been a complete pro about it. All he did was take it in stride and -- from the looks of it -- get better and earn his way back into the lineup. Who knows how long it'll last, but it's pretty admirable.
That's cute that you guys are like best buds now.
Grow up.
Apex will never forgive me for the many douchey, stupid things I've done, and I don't blame him.
He's butthurt that Eli was not mean to you for once, as if we're in fucking high school. Christ.
In an attempt to keep this thread from devolving into pointless bickering revolving around Internet fights from several years ago, I would just simply like to add some joyful positive (http://www.csnchicago.com/cubs/redemption-starlin-castro-has-game-his-life-cubs) about Castro's performance yesterday.
Quote
Castro hit two homers and drove in six runs (tying a career high he set in his MLB debut May 7, 2010) as his redemption came full circle when the Wrigley faithful demanded a curtain call, Castro's first.
"I've been here six years and that's never happened," he said. "I enjoyed it so much".
It's pretty incredible that he's gotten to experience his first curtain call after all that he's gone through this year. It's also pretty awesome.
I wasn't butthurt. Just having a little fun at their expense. I didn't expect anybody to take that comment seriously. I'll do better.
YOU FUCKING BEAUTY.
Quote from: Tonker on September 25, 2015, 04:20:04 PM
YOU FUCKING BEAUTY.
I was at Chuck's bank 90 minutes ago. Missed the chance to tell him to go fuck himself in advance of that triple. Dammit!
Quote from: Brownie on September 25, 2015, 04:21:39 PM
Quote from: Tonker on September 25, 2015, 04:20:04 PM
YOU FUCKING BEAUTY.
I was at Chuck's bank 90 minutes ago. Missed the chance to tell him to go fuck himself in advance of that triple. Dammit!
Watching Baez swing from his ass and K to end the game I remembered that I was right all along and trading Castro is stupid. I never agreed they should do it as much as I accepted it as a part of his (my) destiny.
Go to hell.
(http://i.imgur.com/h5Liqsd.jpg)
Hopefully I didn't just break Desipio with that image post. It looks fine on my iPad.
Quote from: Canadouche on September 28, 2015, 03:55:25 PM
Hopefully I didn't just break Desipio with that image post. It looks fine on my iPad.
When you say "fine"...
Quote from: Tonker on September 28, 2015, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: Canadouche on September 28, 2015, 03:55:25 PM
Hopefully I didn't just break Desipio with that image post. It looks fine on my iPad.
When you say "fine"...
When I say "fine," I mean that Castro is a belt watch away from becoming my personal hero.
Quote from: Canadouche on September 28, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/h5Liqsd.jpg)
It's no hoverboard, but the rest of the outfit looks pretty McFly-ish.
The guy that was left for dead in early August played nearly every single inning in the playoffs. He still sucked, basically reverting to the same player who mystifyingly started to roll a bunch of Murton-soft bouncers to the left side for 2 1/2 months before waking up, but he did homer off Wacha (and he certainly wasn't the only Cub with a cold bat, else we wouldn't be mourning this team right now). The Cubs couldn't give him away at the deadline, so it's nice that he's restored some of his value. Gotta say I still feel he's gone, but I'm less convinced than I was when I started this thread. In fact you could say the Cubs dealing Castro is increasingly unlikely. If they could get more for dealing, say, Baez and/or Soler, I think we may able to live with Castro as the everyday second baseman, though personally I think I'd rather see Baez there. I've never really hated Castro but I think I've see enough of him.
Can Soler play center?
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AM
Can Soler play center?
God no.
But Bryant probably could.
Quote from: PANK! on October 22, 2015, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AM
Can Soler play center?
God no.
But Bryant probably could.
I think the only way the Cubs keep all of them is if one of them bites the CF bullet. I doubt any of them could be worse out there than Brant Brown was. Otherwise, I think Castro needs to be packaged in a trade for a quality starting pitcher.
Quote from: PANK! on October 22, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
The guy that was left for dead in early August played nearly every single inning in the playoffs. He still sucked, basically reverting to the same player who mystifyingly started to roll a bunch of Murton-soft bouncers to the left side for 2 1/2 months before waking up, but he did homer off Wacha (and he certainly wasn't the only Cub with a cold bat, else we wouldn't be mourning this team right now). The Cubs couldn't give him away at the deadline, so it's nice that he's restored some of his value. Gotta say I still feel he's gone, but I'm less convinced than I was when I started this thread. In fact you could say the Cubs dealing Castro is increasingly unlikely. If they could get more for dealing, say, Baez and/or Soler, I think we may able to live with Castro as the everyday second baseman, though personally I think I'd rather see Baez there. I've never really hated Castro but I think I've see enough of him.
I wanted that foul ball he hit to stay straight for a homer. Not that it would have made a difference in the game, but I wanted Castro's last game as a Cub to allow him to go out in style.
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
Quote from: PANK! on October 22, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
The guy that was left for dead in early August played nearly every single inning in the playoffs. He still sucked, basically reverting to the same player who mystifyingly started to roll a bunch of Murton-soft bouncers to the left side for 2 1/2 months before waking up, but he did homer off Wacha (and he certainly wasn't the only Cub with a cold bat, else we wouldn't be mourning this team right now). The Cubs couldn't give him away at the deadline, so it's nice that he's restored some of his value. Gotta say I still feel he's gone, but I'm less convinced than I was when I started this thread. In fact you could say the Cubs dealing Castro is increasingly unlikely. If they could get more for dealing, say, Baez and/or Soler, I think we may able to live with Castro as the everyday second baseman, though personally I think I'd rather see Baez there. I've never really hated Castro but I think I've see enough of him.
I really don't understand where this narrative comes from.
Quote from: Oleg on October 22, 2015, 09:04:54 AM
Quote from: PANK! on October 22, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
The guy that was left for dead in early August played nearly every single inning in the playoffs. He still sucked, basically reverting to the same player who mystifyingly started to roll a bunch of Murton-soft bouncers to the left side for 2 1/2 months before waking up, but he did homer off Wacha (and he certainly wasn't the only Cub with a cold bat, else we wouldn't be mourning this team right now). The Cubs couldn't give him away at the deadline, so it's nice that he's restored some of his value. Gotta say I still feel he's gone, but I'm less convinced than I was when I started this thread. In fact you could say the Cubs dealing Castro is increasingly unlikely. If they could get more for dealing, say, Baez and/or Soler, I think we may able to live with Castro as the everyday second baseman, though personally I think I'd rather see Baez there. I've never really hated Castro but I think I've see enough of him.
I really don't understand where this narrative comes from.
They could have given him away but instead smartly just asked if he had value that the Cubs could actually utilize. Didn't work out. He tore it up afterward.
At least of all the guys who scuffled at the plate, Castro had some loud outs and just misses. The ball he smoked into Wright's outstretched glove was the entire series in a nutshell.
Quote from: Slaky on October 22, 2015, 09:08:57 AM
Quote from: Oleg on October 22, 2015, 09:04:54 AM
Quote from: PANK! on October 22, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
The guy that was left for dead in early August played nearly every single inning in the playoffs. He still sucked, basically reverting to the same player who mystifyingly started to roll a bunch of Murton-soft bouncers to the left side for 2 1/2 months before waking up, but he did homer off Wacha (and he certainly wasn't the only Cub with a cold bat, else we wouldn't be mourning this team right now). The Cubs couldn't give him away at the deadline, so it's nice that he's restored some of his value. Gotta say I still feel he's gone, but I'm less convinced than I was when I started this thread. In fact you could say the Cubs dealing Castro is increasingly unlikely. If they could get more for dealing, say, Baez and/or Soler, I think we may able to live with Castro as the everyday second baseman, though personally I think I'd rather see Baez there. I've never really hated Castro but I think I've see enough of him.
I really don't understand where this narrative comes from.
They could have given him away but instead smartly just asked if he had value that the Cubs could actually utilize. Didn't work out. He tore it up afterward.
At least of all the guys who scuffled at the plate, Castro had some loud outs and just misses. The ball he smoked into Wright's outstretched glove was the entire series in a nutshell.
Theo has admitted out loud that he and Joe had very different opinions of Baez and where he was at and his likelihood of contributing. My guess is Theo still isn't sold on Baez just being handed a spot anywhere, so my gut is actually telling me Castro stays, with Baez used as a trade chip if he can get enough in return or perhaps starting next year in his super sub role.
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Well I know the advanced metrics we have for defense aren't perfect but literally all of them are in agreement with Soler being abysmal defensively, which happens to coincide with the anecdotal eye test. He bad. I'd rather they try Jacque Jones in center again before they put Soler out there. Also defense aside that much extra running would probably lead to his paper mache legs falling apart twice as often as they already do.
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Well I know the advanced metrics we have for defense aren't perfect but literally all of them are in agreement with Soler being abysmal defensively, which happens to coincide with the anecdotal eye test. He bad. I'd rather they try Jacque Jones in center again before they put Soler out there. Also defense aside that much extra running would probably lead to his paper mache legs falling apart twice as often as they already do.
They're all just placeholders until Gleyber/Happ/Eddy Julio is ready to play center.
Quote from: PenFoe on October 22, 2015, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Well I know the advanced metrics we have for defense aren't perfect but literally all of them are in agreement with Soler being abysmal defensively, which happens to coincide with the anecdotal eye test. He bad. I'd rather they try Jacque Jones in center again before they put Soler out there. Also defense aside that much extra running would probably lead to his paper mache legs falling apart twice as often as they already do.
They're all just placeholders until Gleyber/Happ/Eddy Julio is ready to play center.
I, too, am already rubbing my nuts over 2018.
Quote from: Slaky on October 22, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
Quote from: PenFoe on October 22, 2015, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Well I know the advanced metrics we have for defense aren't perfect but literally all of them are in agreement with Soler being abysmal defensively, which happens to coincide with the anecdotal eye test. He bad. I'd rather they try Jacque Jones in center again before they put Soler out there. Also defense aside that much extra running would probably lead to his paper mache legs falling apart twice as often as they already do.
They're all just placeholders until Gleyber/Happ/Eddy Julio is ready to play center.
I, too, am already rubbing my nuts over 2018.
That will also be around the time we get our next season of "Too Many Shortstops".
Quote from: Median Desipio Chucklehead on October 22, 2015, 12:15:55 PM
Quote from: Slaky on October 22, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
Quote from: PenFoe on October 22, 2015, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 09:20:04 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 09:16:32 AM
Quote from: SKO on October 22, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
Quote from: R-V on October 22, 2015, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Canadouche on October 22, 2015, 07:29:51 AMCan Soler play center?
Now *this* post makes sense as one which you should have hesitated to submit. Because it's really bad.
I think this is the second time Kurt has said something about Soler in center which really leads me to believe Kurt has never actually watched a Cubs game with Soler in the outfield.
I consider the number of times I've seen Soler in right to be anecdotal to his abilities. He hasn't looked particularly awful in the games I've watched, except for that horrible diving "grab" a couple of nights ago that ended with the ball in the ivy.
Well I know the advanced metrics we have for defense aren't perfect but literally all of them are in agreement with Soler being abysmal defensively, which happens to coincide with the anecdotal eye test. He bad. I'd rather they try Jacque Jones in center again before they put Soler out there. Also defense aside that much extra running would probably lead to his paper mache legs falling apart twice as often as they already do.
They're all just placeholders until Gleyber/Happ/Eddy Julio is ready to play center.
I, too, am already rubbing my nuts over 2018.
That will also be around the time we get our next season of "Too Many Shortstops".
I think we're past that for now.
Gleyber is the only real SS prospect left and it sure looks like Addison Russell has that job fairly nailed down for at least the next year or two before someone could challenge him for that (barring injury.)
/thread